"We know of some users who troll through eBay looking for items that the seller has mis-categorized or misspelled. They can then buy the item at a bargain (since no one else can find it!)."
Obviously this happens, I've done it myself, but how do you know who these people are? Even if you know who they are, instead of playing follow the leader, why not do it yourself?
1) Ethics - an auction in my view is totally different from a yard sale. If a valuable item is way underpriced at a yard sale, I'll sometimes offer what I feel for me, is a fair price that I am willing to pay for it at that point in time.
However, in an auction situation, be it live or online, there is the element of a crap shoot. If a seller puts up a $50.00 button with a starting bid of $1.00, they are allowing the market to determine the value of the button. Which, in reality, is only what someone is willing to pay for it. The seller is taking a chance that it will sell for more, but wonder if it doesn't? Wonder if I'm the only person who catches the auction with my sniper program, and buy it for the $1.00 opening bid? I don't feel that is unethtical or that I should have emailed the seller about the value of the button since he has made the decision to list it at $1.00, hoping it will gain bids. Would anyone tell a live auctioneer,"You should start the bidding at $25.00 rather than $2.00 since it is worth more than $25.00?"
2) There is that saying , "You leave your friends at the door of an auction." - this is another good reason for my using the sniper program. Since we button collectors are a limited number, we belong to the same discussion groups, go to the same shows and know each other more intimately than just other onliners. If I see someone I know online, I do not want to outbid them if I value their friendship. However, out of 'cowardness', I can justify outbidding a friend when I use the sniper program since I don't bother to check if I know the bidder's email, but rather blame the automated sniper for winning the bid! Nevertheless, I've often sold back the button to a friend, if they really wanted it and if I really like them.
3) I equate a sniper program to the phone-in bidder at a live auction. Usually, the auctioneer opens up the bidding to house first and then the bidding war starts when he goes to the phone bidder. Like the sniper, the phone bidder's identity is anynomous, usually he puts his bid in at the last moment and the highest bidder wins, regardless if he is a phone-in bidder or an in-house bidder. Conversely, the highest bidder wins regardless if it is sniped bid or a proxy bid, so how does a winning sniped bid negatively effect the final price?
4) The primary difference between a sniped bid and a proxy bid is basically just the flexibility/control one has over the time the bid is placed. It might be in my best interest to bid at the last few seconds or if I prefer, I can submit my bid at whatever point in the auction that I want when I use a sniper program. That control is taken away from me the moment I place an ebay proxy bid since the proxy bid is placed immediately, even though my highest price isn't instantly apparent, unless someone has bid higher. For reasons already explained, it might not be in the buyer's best interest to show their hand too early in the bidding game.
5) Seller's worst enemy?-I don't think I agree or maybe I don't understand. What difference does it make to the final price realized if the bidder uses a sniper program or the ebay proxy bid? Either way, it is the highest bid that wins and I don't see how a sniper program negatively affects the end sale price for the seller. Please explain.
Since ebay has a definitive ending time, it makes no difference to the final price realized how the highest bid is placed. This wouldn't hold true, however, if ebay had open-ending auctions since then other bidders could jump into the bidding at the last minute, thereby, continually extending the end of the auction indefinitely. In this case, a sniper program would be useless since the bidding could go on forever.
6) Negative: The best example of a negative effect on sellers, I've read so far , is the fact that ,indeed, the seller loses the names of those potential bidders who use a sniper program but who don't place a high enough bid to be included in the list of bidders.
Sorry for rambling but I've enjoyed the many points of view and the thread of this discussion.
Anyone know what percentage of auctions are actually won with sniping programs? I think eBay should encourage greater use of Buy It Now. Bidding early is virtually non-existent at this point.
I vowed I was going to walk away from this item but just can't. Another good reason against sniping is :
How many time have you been looking at an item, done the research, placed it into your sniper( got to admit I'm a procrastinist -Yes I have a snipe program(in fact a great one) and my dual zeon workstation is on a 100 meg fibre optic line(can't get faster than that) and since I use Atom Time same program as ebay to automatically set my computers clock every three hours I can place a bid at the last second and I mean the last second and know I will get it in. Point to this being that I can probably beat 90 percent of the snipe programs and all that are dialup again going back to one with the fastest computer, quickest sure connection and best bidsniper program probably wins. Do I feel good about doing it , you bet!! But thats me as a buyer talking not a seller.
Anyways back to my original point of this post. You got a new seller, posted an item, being a new seller he gone into the closed auctions and checked what his item average selling price, thinks great, posts his item waits one day, three days, five days and my god the auction got only 1o hours to go, and not one bid(because everbody has used a snipe prgram or is waiting to the last minute) puff all of sudden the item is gone reason posting error etc etc, god I have even seen the experienced sellers get wet feet and pull items. Lets face it the best deals usually come from new sellers, maybe he will be back but then again maybe not, or if he does its going to have a high reserve. He's out his posting fees, his time, the loss of sleep, worry about whether this was a mistake placing an item with no reserve. I know what this is all about 2 years ago I took a couple of my prize muscle cars to Barrett Jackson, got talked into no reserve by their sales manager(smooth talker), he got me all convinced that no reserve cars always go for more etc etc bragging about how they get 90-100 percent sales (yeah right they got no reserve what else are they going to do, I still shake my head as I get off the Banana Boat) etc. Well we arrive in Phoneix and went down to the auction thursday night to check out the action !! . and Christ their giving away classic cars, to make a long story short my cars were set to go on primetime Sunday, didn't sleep and almost loaded them back up for the haul back to the Great White North, (if they weren't already inside the gate behind a couple of big guards( hey BJ has this one figured out) I probably would have), I didn't and actually did really well on them, but had no finger nails left, and probably was the worst three days my poor wife ever spent, with a guy that was continually having anxiety attacks. Rambling again, but Bid sniping sucks for sellers and in this instance for buyers as well. The only thing good about it is for the 20 percent of ebayers who now have it or the programers selling it.
On 2002-09-04 21:19, toolman wrote:
I vowed I was going to walk away from this item but just can't.
Well, I'm glad you couldn't walk away. This is a good thread with valid points on both sides.
There has to be a differentiation between "real life" auctions and eBay. Sniping can't exist in RL auctions because there is no finite end to bidding. The item is sold when bidding stops, not when the clock runs out. So sniping is a perfectly natural outgrowth of the system that eBay has put into place. If auctions were extended 5 minutes for every last minute bid that was placed, there would be no need for sniping software.
From my own experiences selling, I've had a large percentage of my auctions with sniping activity at the end - and the items still end up bringing prices that are at the higher end of the eBay spectrum. If I want to ensure that I don't lose an item cheaply, I use a reserve.
Joined: 18 Aug 2001 Posts: 1972 Location: East of Rockies
Posted: Sun Sep 08, 2002 2:39 pm Post subject:
Thanks, Dave.
I went there and did a search but couldn't find that thread.
Not certain, but I'd allmost bet that eBay is in bed with at least one Sniping development company. Seems they're in bed with a wide variety of app providers these days. Sure like to be a fly on the wall in one of eBay's private management meetings. Bet there's lots we would find very interesting
The problem ebay has right now is the average price has fallen, even as the volume goes up.
<http://www.auctionbytes.com/pages/abn/y01/m06/i06/s01>
So they get their listing fees and 10 days fees etc, but the final value fees have not reached their potential.
I feel this is mainly due to the different classes of bidder on ebay, and in addition to sniper sites and the increase in sniper ability in peopls in general.
The 2 classes of bidder are broadband bidders(cable and ADSL) and phone line bidders(not ADSL)
So the fast BW people wait until the bid has 3-5 seconds to go and they bid. Their bid arrives, but by the time the 33.6 bidder sees it has gone up, the auction has closed.
Slow BW people can also subscribe to a sniper site. A sniper site is a high bandwidth site and you send them your ID and passord and the bid amount and it waits for the last 3-5 seconds and then enters your bid, and it beats the others.
Of course with 5 sniper sites, the one with the highest final bid amount will win.... As long as the cycles are free to complete. Of course the final clock rings down before this completes and ebay gets screwed and the seller gets screwed and those on 33.6 phone lines also get screwed.
Ebay need to invoke a 2 minute wait after the final bid before the clock can tick the end of the auction.
After all in a real auction would the auctioneer shut the auction down at a set instant if he could see other bids trying to get in? Not at all, he would let the bids into the auction.
I know of many people who are fleeing from ebay to other auction sites that fight snipers this way.
Of course, ebay pontificates and says people should place their high bid in and let it win...HAH, human nature being what it is people want to watch and wait and place a higher bid manually, when they feel it is called for.
A 2 minute rule would let auction prices rise a lot higher. ebay would make more $$ and the sellers would make more. The losers would be the buyers, but lose no tears for them, they are getting a deal anyway.
Billybob
Joined: 07 Jan 2002 Posts: 699 Location: Houston, TX
Posted: Thu Sep 26, 2002 8:25 pm Post subject:
Billybob wrote:
...So the fast BW people wait until the bid has 3-5 seconds to go and they bid. Their bid arrives, but by the time the 33.6 bidder sees it has gone up, the auction has closed...
Whether or not you have a high bandwidth or a dial-up connection, or whether you bid manually or use snipe tools is completely irrelevant. If you placed a late bid that was not the maximum you were willing to pay then you have no one to blame but yourself. If you bid your max and still get beat then the other bidder(s) was simply willing to pay more. This topic comes up again and again and it always boils down to this same simple concept.
Toby, Many people will not send a bid to an auction. They want to be there.
In effect your max bid is your onsite sniper against other onsite maximums.
However when you can sit off the radar and snipe in a bid you catch the people who do not want to leave a proxy.
It is quite true that if you bid your nax you should then walk away, but some people do not know what their max is, they dop not know the market, but they want the item and theye are willing to beat anyone sho shows up.
So they should proxy $100,000 and wake up the winner...unless there was another $100,000 proxy in there.
It is human nature to want to sit with your finger on the button abd beat the other guy. If that could be done some of the excitement of the real world auction would enter ebay.
Right now, you hold your breath and wonder if your proxy gunman will beat their proxy gun man.
Me, I wantas a buyer I want to snipe as I feel I get it cheaper by catching some goof asleep with no proxy...and as a sniper I do not show as a bidder, traceless until I appear with a winning bid. As a seller, I want no snipes and want it more traditional, since I do not want people who snipe like I do when it is my sale on the line.
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